Hip Hop? No redeeming qualities? Now who would say a thing like that?

Enjoy the spotlight that this "music" dances in now. Like labor pains and presidential elections - all these things must pass!

Give it a rest, Steven.
we get it already.
You don't like hip-hop. Fine. Move on.

But people have repeatedly told you that hip-hop is not synonymous with commercial "gansta rap"... that it is a
powerful movement that encompasses more than just music...
but you refuse to educate yourself on the issue despite commentary from ambra, avery and others...

Now, I know I am gonna get myself in trouble, but I have been bothering people a little bit longer than you. I'm used to it; It's just my way.

It seems that every new musical style has been called "the devil's music." I think this phrase was coined by Eve, yelling at Cain to turn those rocks down!

When we're young we create rebellious music. Being rebellious myself, I can dig it. (Warning: ancient cultural term, but trust me, only the coolest people used to use it.) But reaching to the (mostly)lowest common denominator hip-hop culture seems a step backwards, and unnecessary.

Let's face it, Slick Willie din't become the "First Black President" because of his dance moves. He was a master of mixing groveling and white deference.

I won't touch white folk's love affair with hip-hop. Your readers know the relevant statistics by heart. I must address this to the brothers in the audience. Warning, as always, if it doesn't apply to you, let it pass.

It's cool to sing "I ain't too proud to beg."

It's not cool to actually beg.

Sorry Jab, but you'll have to have to come up with something better than "ignorance" to defeat my argument. I guarantee that I have more diverse musical tastes that anyone.

Hip-hop is not a movement, it's a marketing strategy. It's youth angst. I know you feel like you're going through something that no one has ever gone through before. I'm sorry, but things are tough all over.

I hope I'm wrong, but do we still dream? Where is the next frontier? Is music still an outlet for beauty?

Love suffereth long,
and is kind;
Love envieth not;
Love vaunteth not itself,
is not puffed up,

Steven, really now. Hiphop isn't "new" anymore, and neither are your claims. It was around in full effect (among my circle) when I was a teenager in the 80s and it certainly wasn't about 'angst' then. There was lots of 'hiphop is a fad' talk back then, too.

Don't get lost in the marketing hype. That's not all there is. Not by half.

memer,

You are right, there are even a few hip-hop songs that I like from back then. It was fun, but that really makes my point. Hip-hop did to soul what grunge did to rock, for the most part, a very depressing turn of events.

But as a musical form, does it has really have any more value than pop? What are the hip-hop standards, the ones evey aspiring artist must know? The ones they still play today.

Hip-hop is not a fad any more than rock is. We have undergone a culture change. Men climbed mountains "because they were there." It was reflected in our music. I want our youth to be inspired!

"For the record, let's be clear on one thing: Hip Hop is amoral."

Ummm I don't think amoral means what you think it means. While its not as bad as being "immoral", having no moral standards is still not a good thing.

It is also untrue of course. There are morals and rules in the hip-hop community (although technically the "art" is simply a tool). For instance people got really pissed with Tupac when he rapped about sleeping with Biggie's wife because you were not supposed to mess with family.

Jeff, I did mean what I said. "Amoral" meaning it's neither good nor bad. I say the same thing of Money and Music is general. It's all a tool. It's what we use it for that determines its virtue.

@ steven...and others: Hip hop began as (and in some ways is) a movement and culture. It never began as marketing strategy and it took a while before people saw any marketing value in it. The problem (or rather, my problem with hip hop) is it has now become a marketing strategy. Also, I would say hip hop began in the mid-late 70s, not 80s, though its roots are tied to the 40s and earlier.

Some of us are still trying to hold on to the movement/culture before its all been sold to the devil for marketing purposes.

Ethel, you said that it "began as (and in some ways is) a movement and culture." How so? How would you define hip-hop culture? Is there a bluegrass culture?

Steven,

Depends on how stringently you want to define "culture." For a serious hip-hop head, hip-hop culture is comprised of four elements: MCing, DJing, breakdancing, and grafitti art (not so much scribbly tags, but complex "wild style" lettering). I personally don't subscribe to that definition, but that's one that many people will use.

As to the nature of hip-hop culture, if you look at culture as a shared way of life, especially as it pertains to language, customs, value systems, style of dress, etc., then which would be my definition, then yes, there is a hip-hop culture, just like there was a punk culture. Obviously, these cannot be fully separated from the larger millieu in which they exist, so it would probably be more proper to discuss them as sub-cultures, but to the extent that bluegrass is a link through which people see themselves as being connected to one another, it could be said to have its own culture. Not being very familiar with bluegrass, I can't tell the difference between that and country-western, but I think it's fairly obvious that hardcore c/w listeners operate on a slightly different cultural frequency than the rest of us. They speak differently, they dress differently, etc. Same thing with hip-hop. Furthermore, if there are some markers that would distinguish bluegrassers from c/w'ers then I would argue that bluegrass indeed is its own separate culture.

Having said that, just because I listen to country on the radio or have some Charley Pride and Johnny Cash records, that doesn't make me a part of that lifestyle or culture. In fact, if I were making a complete argument on this, I would probably suggest that the degree of acculturation is inversely proportional to the mainstream popularity.

Thanks Avery, that was exactly what I was looking for. When we think "culture," I think it is natural to think little "c" and big "C". What you described is an excellent example of little "c."

Think of big "C" as say French culture: Frogs, haughtiness and white flags. Or American culture: Desire for equality; Respect for law; Distruss of elites; Individualism.

Plese correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't shake the feeling that the Simmon's of the world are trying to claim what you expressed above as a big "C."

Again, let's forget about the white folks for a moment. Observations like mine are rarely accepted from white guys, but in this case, they are given in love. Russell needs to understand, the time for movements for black folks ended in 1965. It time to accept what white racists have denied for years: black people are individuals. Music is not destiny.

There is in fact a bluegrqass culture. While this is not a perfect anology, country is to bluegrass what hip-hop is to rap: cousins. Except bluegrqass cousins marry each other:)

Culture as in lifestyle. Way of life. What Avery said.

No comment on the bluegrass. lol.

As for how it began as a culture vs. becoming a marketing strategy...if you look into hip hop's history it was very grassroots and nobody really cared about it. People also underestimated it. It was also different back then. Today, half the artists who release "music" (I use that term loosely) under the guise of hip hop, aren't really hip hop. Not the real deal. This is where the marketing strategies have come in to play and basically ruined a good thing. It's bound to get worse, I'm sure.

the idea that rappers control or influence political thought is asinine.

really. people need to get a grip.

none of the kids I'm around cared about Jadakiss' comments about "the towers" until...

here it comes...

conserva-kooks went ape over it. they are the one's who hyped the rap, so much so that he rushed a "re-mix".

the truth is, people are afraid that the "hip hop" generation is going to vote democrat. and i've said it before, the venom directed towards rap is more than just the filth being put out by rappers.

nelly is rapping about "getting your eagle on." others are rapping about rims, women, and other garbage.

l.l. just registered to vote last year. andre 2000 just registered to vote this year and hearing him speak on politics was just mind exploding.

someone else just said voting is a waste of time.

I don't know where we get off deeming who is authoritative in speaking on politics, and who isn't. There are plenty of other asinine regular americans in this country who are voting because Kerry went hunting and they share the same hobby, or because Schilling just won the world series and he says vote for Bush. What do these people have in common with "political" hip-hoppers? They all have the right to vote. They also have the right to speak freely on their political views if they so choose. The only difference is some people have a platform and ears listening to them. Get over it, roll out to the polls and see what happens. Voting and politics isn't some kind of high culture, nor is it exclusive. If hip hoppers want to talk about politics amongst their rhymes of liquor, rims, ice cream shoes and crip flags (only on the left side, yeah thats the crip side), then so be it. My mama is voting for Bush because he's faithful to his wife and because Theresa didn't drop her Heinz last name in exchange for Kerry's. Please.

cosign on ethel. what are politicians, but people who think they can speak for other people? they're certainly not guaranteed to be any smarter or wiser than the average person. most politicians are just as knuckleheaded as the stereotypical hip-hopper, just in a less ostentatious way. grits is groceries and eggs is poultry, but not because some politican or celebrity said so.

Ethel & Avery, you guys speak much truth. I support the right of everyone to speak their mind, even Eminem.

I guess my complaints come out of sympathy for people trying to avoid peer pressure. Just because someone shares the same hip-hop culture does not mean they have to believe all of the same things.

I married my wife in 1990, lets be real, we went through nothing like those who came before us. I couldn't even imagine comparing my situation to those pioneers.