Or Ambra, you could have just said: 'Christmas? Bah! Humbug!'

I would boycott Target, but I never go there anyway!

Off to Walmart, I've got a little spare change to drop into a bucket. I just adore bells!

Actually, this is my favorite time of year and I adore Christmas (although I know I shouldn't)because it's not a Christian holiday. My argument here is that Target is being painted as Scooge, the bad guy because they made a viable business decision. We all need to get over ourselves. If everyone's so concerned about their losses, then donate more.

End of story.

This has nothing to do with any of the thoughtful points in your analysis. What this is really about is that the Salvation Army (because it is in fact Christian) refuses to adapt itself to the homosexual political agenda. In the same way the Boy Scouts have been driven out of public schools and off wilderness areas of government land and in some cases out of the United Way because of their resistance to similar demands.

David, could be true, but until I see it, I don't see a reason to fault Target like they're the devil. And I can understand the reason behind wanting to rally behind anything that would oppose the boyscoutts (and I mean that seriously) because generally you're right, it surrounds the homosexuality issue which the secular industry abhors. And as for the United Way, well, I agree, they're evil.

I'm not questioning whether the Salvation Army is or isn't Christian. I'd say the name itself is fairly explicit. What I'm saying is, this isn't exactly "World Vision" or something of the like.

If what you're saying is true, then yes, I suppose Christians shouldn't expect any less from a carnal society. But the arguments I've read thus far in the argument have been directed towards the "it's against the spirit of Christmas" defense which in my opinion is bunk.

Meh, whatever. I think Target is kinda being a jerk about the whole thing, but I'd still shop there. They've made, for better or worse, some pretty interesting business decisions in the past. I recall that, for a while, they wouldn't sell M-rated video games. (Although, this has probably changed while I wasn't looking.)

As for the ringers, though, I kinda like 'em. Shoot, once you get inside the store, you don't hear 'em anymore, so what's the deal? I hate the cold. I go from the car to the store, and that's it. I may pause momentarily by the SA kettle on the way in, but that's all. So, the noise doesn't affect me that much.

But then again, I've been in Europe for seven years, where they don't really do that sort of thing. So yeah. Chalk it up to a childhood memory that, thankfully, I'll get to experience again this year.

In short, I don't like Tarjay's actions, but if the price is right, I ain't gonna boycott or badmouth them. It's their decision, they'll have to deal with it themselves, and I'll have to deal with the low, low prices.

Of course, all this is irrelevant due to the fact that, back in my hometown, the nearest Target is about an hour away. :)

Oh yeah, and Hewitt is wrong about the Boy Scout comparison. Pentagon = government. Target = private entity. Big dif, there. But that's another argument altogether. ;)

I have no proof of anti-Christian bias, but isn't Target owned by big "progressives?" I may be wrong, but doesn't the Minn. Sen. Dayton's family own Target?

Ambra, maybe it's just places like Seattle? The Salvation Army here in Columbus still holds services and it's soup kitchen is run kinda old-fashioned.

Kudos.
I agree.

I love Target. Used to be a Wallie-World fan but they have made me angry with their attempt to overtake the world.

Bah, humbug. Here's Scrooge agreeing with this corporate policy. It's their real estate. They have a right to accept or deny any outside charitable group. It's also my right to support or reject that retail outlet with my credit card balance. Besides, I'll shop on-line and avoid excess agita.

I refuse to darken Wal-Mart's door since they had the temerity to defend the fact that you can buy "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" (yes, that one) from their website, even though they so-politely decline to have it in their brick-and-mortar stores.

There is some kind of grave disconnect going on there. That virulently anti-Semitic tract should not be sold anywhere by anyone with a shred of decency, and since I hate the entire Wal-mart shopping experience anyway, I was just as happy to find a reason to literally never go there again.

I had a very pleasant trip to Target with my 3 cherubs today. I wish they had been kinder to Salvation Army -- I have seen some discussion of how SA pays their kettle-minder/bell-ringers, and for some on the fringes, it's the first paycheck they may see all year -- but I also respect that it's their real estate and they can manage it as they see fit.

I realize the Dec 25 date was essentially pulled out of a hat, but I have to say, I love Advent and the entire season. I even put out our winter dishes (I keep them around way past Christmas) this morning. I guess I'm just ready for it this year. It helps that I get to see it all reflected in the eyes of my own children. They know "the reason for the Season," and for sure it isn't Santa Claus.

I am disappointed by Target's decision to ban the Salvation Army kettles. I liked hearing those bells. And I especially loved seeing my children's faces when they put money into the kettle. The lessons of giving are not as concrete to a 3 year old when you have to write a check and mail it in.

Still, I will continue to shop there. I don't recall Target ever claiming to be a Christian organization so it doesn't surprise me when they don't act like one.

I've never liked Target and their stance on the Salvation Army just gives me more incentive to go to Walmart, which I love anyway.

Counter Point #1 - Many people associate the Christmas season with bells - whether they be from the steeple, or from the SA rep next to the kettle.

CP #2 - The SA seems to be much MORE of a religious organization in other countries (i.e., Great Britain) although I'm not sure why. But the help they give to those who are "down and almost out" is REAL, and I personally want to support any organization who can accomplish so much without taking my tax dollars.

CP #3 - Didn't the Early Christian Church decide to celebrate Christmas to co-opt the pagan winter solstice hoiliday? I think the shortest day of the year is usually Dec 21 or 22, but that's close enough for medieval times, I guess. All the other pagan trappings, such as the evergreen tree, symbol of green in the middle of winter, have also been added over the years. Face it, if the church couldn't even find the correct YEAR of Christ's birth (dated from Roman Augustus' tax census) who would beileve them as to which DAY he was born?

CP #4 - actually I agree with everyone on this point. It IS Target's right to ban or allow SA reps on their property. If you don't want to shop there, OR if you don't want to shop at Wal-Mart, why not just get into the holiday spirit by giving what REALLY counts? By that, I mean, your time and attention! Sure, get the kids a toy or two, but why go overboard? I recall what some british guy said about 30 yrs ago, "The Christmas Spirit is not what you drink!"

cas, that was Ian Anderson, of Jethro Tull, in his song/rant against the commercialization of Christmas, "A Christmas Song":

Once in Royal David's City stood a lonely cattle shed,
where a mother held her baby.
You'd do well to remember the things He later said.
When you're stuffing yourselves at the Christmas parties,
you'll just laugh when I tell you to take a running jump.
You're missing the point I'm sure does not need making
that Christmas spirit is not what you drink.

So how can you laugh when your own mother's hungry,
and how can you smile when the reasons for smiling are wrong?
And if I just messed up your thoughtless pleasures,
remember, if you wish, this is just a Christmas song.

A smarter PR move would have been to place Target-controlled charity boxes at the entrance, exits & cash registers--- and let the employees & customers choose the charities from a Target-approved list-- so say 21% of the money goes to the American Cancer Society; 11% to Red Cross, etc.

Takes the bah-humbug out of it-- gives employees a voice; becomes part of a marketing plan to customers; puts Target's name in front of all of those approved charities; and makes Target look like a benefactor--even more so if they match the money up to a certain point.

Late to the party, but I'll add my two cents (and not to the SA bucket!):

A private business has a right to control the property it owns (or leases/rents). The prime concern of a business is closing the sale. If something occurs once a potential customer enters the business to discourage a sale, then the business will be negatively affected. Enough people do not like to be "accosted" by bells and pleas to give at the store entrance, so much that the store decides to remove this distraction.

My local Wal-Mart will allow local youth groups (besides the SA) to use the front of the store for fund-raisers. I don't appreciate those either just because I don't like to feel as if I'm being "mean" when I decline to give. I understand the need to hustle money out of reluctant donors, but it bothers me to be confronted right at the door when I'm there for something else.

This "begging" has been going on for millenia and will probably go on as long as there is money to be fleeced.

Oh yeah, point #3:

I think this celebration goes beyond pagan and answers a need for man to celebrate the lengthening of days. Way back when, before Methusaleh had to stop putting candles on his birthday cake, people would get nervous as the days got shorter, fearful that the trend would continue to the point of no sun (no life).

It took about ten days to notice a significant change in the length of daylight, hence the new year starting out Dec. 31. People by faith celebrated a few days after Dec. 21, the shortest day of the year.

Christians don't celebrate the actual "birth" day, we celebrate the birth of a Saviour, the birth of another year, the hope of an eternity with God. We celebrate more Son, more life.

Lileks? Conservative?

Linda:, you are correct. It should never suprise us that a secular organization fails to recognize the "sacred".

MarcV: I would just like you to know that your aversion to being hounded for finances upon your entry to business establishments in no way qualifies you as a scrooge. I feel the same way too. And I'm a BIG giver.

Chadster: Thanks for the Hewitt/boyscout comparison perspective. There's a lot of fodder there for later discussion.

Cas: you are correct. The SA is much more about its mission abroad which doesn't suprise me considering America's take-it-or-leave it attitude towards anything that has to do with God.

Tony: Maybe you should work for Target's PR team. I think at this point, cleaning up their mess would probably only make things worse. But it's not like Target isn't giving to the community. What's funny is that the consumer has fixed in their mind that only certain types of given are acceptable.

Actually, Sigivald, that's Lileks's niche. He's the touted "Conservative Humorist"; perhaps not civily, but most definitely fiscally.

Anyhoo, correct me if I'm wrong...

Letter to Target,
(by the way at what a bell ringer may get paid - that is qualified as volunteer work to me!)

The Salvation Army (SA) bothers no one, does not chase people to their cars, or follow them to the front door of TARGET - they simply are volunteers wanting to help less fortunate people during the holiday.

Bad - bad call to remove the Salvation Army TARGET, if TARGET upper management can not see the difference between the SA and other types of solicitation, hmm, hire more intelligent VP’s and CEO’s.

Once TARGET fires the CEO or VP that made this call, and this is made very public, my family will again visit this store.

Tell the flakes in $1000 suites that run TARGET to throw a dollar (or have their ‘people’ do it if this is beneath them) in a red SA kettle once in a while – now that is what a Christmas holiday is all about.

NOT VISITING TARGET AGAIN IN NC – and aggressively asking others to do the same

Marc V, it's people like you that cause confiscatory taxation: "This "begging" has been going on for millenia and will probably go on as long as there is money to be fleeced."

Taxation is the real "fleecing". If you don't want to donate to charity, you don't have to. Nobody is taking the money from you. You're not being forced to pay. It's your choice. Do you not see the difference?

If you feel guilty for not giving, maybe there's a good reason for that. You ought to be able to scrape together a few quarters now and then. If you can afford a computer, you can spare some pocket change once in awhile for the truly needy among us. If you don't, you have no business celebrating Christmas anyway.

The Salvation Army, an international movement, is an evangelical part of the universal Christian Church. Its message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by the love of God. Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination.
--Salvation Army mission statement

Christian organizations, Christians, Christmas, and the message of God's love will always be distorted and resisted, wittingly or unwittingly, until this world ends. In this latest go-round, the Salvation Army will be fine, God's Church will go on, Target's reward is here on earth, and the whole thing is, in the larger scheme of things, a tempest in a teacup. There are very, very few businesses in this world that one can patronize in perfectly good conscience. If we all really put our money where our mouth is, we would all be living off the grid, in the boonies, alone. Boycotts are rarely effective, but by all means, Target should hear from strongly believing people regarding the decision to bar the SA, and they will. An earlier writer mentioned that the primary concern of a business is closing the sale, and that "Enough people do not like to be accosted by bells and pleas to give at the store entrance, so much that the store decides to remove this distraction." However, if MORE people are upset by the fact that the bells and pleas are gone (may sound strange, but may be true!), then it makes sense to bring those bell-ringers back, doesn't it? You see how amusing but ultimately pointless the discussion can become. As for being bothered by pleas for money: get over it, or move to some kind of utopian society where nobody needs or wants anything, and nobody bothers anybody or gives them reason to think. Oh, yeah, that society doesn't exist, and will never exist on this earth.